Songs With Scenes and Themes: An Interview with Kelly Kintner

I’m going to guess that it was Chris Triggs of the La La Lettes who turned me on to the Kintners, a rootsy, Texas-based songwriting duo consisting of husband and wife Kelly and Keri Kintner. After all, a quote from Chris appears prominently on their web page: “Keri’s voice is like the angels.” Add to that heartfelt lyrics and honest, homespun musicianship—not to mention Kelly’s always-insightful Twitter feed—and it’s easy to see why so many other singer-songwriters (Brian Lambert among them) admire the Kintners. Curious as ever about the ins and outs of making music in the midst of a constantly-changing cultural and technological landscape, I was very pleased when Kelly agreed to the following interview.

I’d describe your sound as “rootsy” and reminiscent of the soundtrack to O Brother, Where Art Thou? What draws you to this style of music, and how might the style complement your approach to songwriting?

We generally write songs with scenes and themes. We were feeling “O Brother” that day, I guess. If you’re referring to “Smoke and Mud.” Some days we feel James Bond, or Southern Gothic, or Hudson River. But that’s a huge compliment to be connected with that film as the music Director is T-bone Burnett, one of my heroes.

You recently taught someone to use GarageBand, and they consequently announced that they were going to become a singer-songwriter. Of course, anyone who’s ever tried to write a song knows that it’s more than a matter of having the right software. What is songwriting for you? What are the challenges, and why do you find it rewarding?

That’s a loaded question. Songwriting for me is basically me keeping out of trouble. Some people have video games, some people get lost in their work, if we didn’t have these things then we might turn towards self-destruction or something. I feel like songwriting is something productive I can do with my time. Improvement and achievement are the rewards. Just like in video games when the numbers go up, when I hear old recordings compared to new ones, I feel like I “leveled up,” ha ha.

Definitely! I’m also thinking about being an independent singer-songwriter as opposed, I guess, to an artist on a major label. Why do independent artists—and, of course, their art—matter?

Have you ever watched any of the race cars with all the stickers of companies they represent? Hey, being independent might not enable you to race on the big track, however, you don’t have to race at all if you just like cruising. You generally start out on the small races anyway.

Your song “Smoke and Mud” will become available on all streaming services on December 30. I know you’ve described yourself in the past as “not spiritual,” yet the song employs quite a bit of Biblical imagery. I’m curious as to how those two influences came together in that song, and also how you might see them at work in the world at large, particularly as they relate to the larger themes of that song—namely getting past temporary, albeit substantial, obstructions in order to gain a clearer perspective on life?

I was trying to evoke mood and atmosphere with those lyrics. My wife was helping me with her biblical knowledge. I just can’t think about old South without thinking about the Bible. I just had to incorporate the darker imagery from the Bible in the song when it started heading toward the swamp. Each verse, thanks to my wife, is a character. The first verse we have the main narrator, then the second verse we have Paul who was blinded as Saul, then David, then Jesus in the garden. Just because I don’t feel the Bible most days, doesn’t mean it’s not all around me.

“Smoke and Mud” also represents a team effort. The notes on your Bandcamp page describe the track as a “Collaboration on Twitter featuring a cast of all stars including Brady Jo, OrangeG, Kev Sharp, Jeff Harrington and crew.” Can you say more about that collaboration—how it worked, challenges it may have posed, how you overcame them? Or, more positively, why you enjoyed it?

Nearly everything we do is a collaboration on some level. We are currently working on an album where there are probably 20 or 30 people, I haven’t counted lately. I like writing the songs and performing acoustic and vocals if need be, but that’s about it. I would rather have professionals in other areas do the other stuff. I just think it makes the song sound better. Brady and I have been working a whole year on the album coming out at the end of January. Hopefully. We’ve broken a few computers on it. Sure it’s challenging with all the personalities and timetables. But you can plan for that. It’s all about trying to make your songs presentable to non-musicians. In our case we find it takes a lot of work and a team effort.

Who are some other artists you’ve enjoyed working with? What do you gain from such collaborations?

This is my favorite question. Bkbirge is amazeballs, as is Kev Sharp. Mixedbyadam has incredible ears and skill. Ben Shaw and Roger Brainard are frequently on my call list. Some of the best work I’ve ever done has been with Nathan Peter Illes. I’m going to build more about the people I work with on the website when the album comes.

I often get the sense from your Twitter feed that you’re looking for a sense of community among songwriter and musicians – and, more broadly, among music lovers. How well is Twitter meeting that need? What can it be doing better, or what might a better platform for genuine dialog about songwriting look like?

I’ve been on Twitter in the mornings for years and I have a sense of community there. But unless I try to keep it going it fades out like a match in the rain. This morning in fact I just started a private songwriters club on Facebook. And we have a website. I don’t feel like it’s Twitter‘s responsibility to make musicians better at hooking up. Twitter is fine. But it’s more like hanging out backstage with musicians than it is on stage in front of an audience. There’s a lot to be gained from it, it just may not be what you’re looking for.

I know that you work in a music store. Do you find a sense of community there?

I find local music scenes cutthroat and generally unnecessary for writing good songs. Maybe it’s just Texas. I’ve never had much luck with local music. As far as trying to develop community.

I’m also wondering if people still know what to do when they enter a physical store. Back when I worked in a music store—just as the internet was taking off—I liked meeting all the people who would come and go. It wasn’t just a place for business transactions. It was a place to meet fellow musicians and just chat about music. What’s it like in today’s world?

Most people who come into the store just come to hang out. That’s wonderful and we like it. We will even make them a cup of coffee.

You’ve written some music for film. What do you do to protect your work? Why is that so important

Movies won’t look at you if they feel like they’re going to get sued. So they’ve established protocols for songs before they even look at them. Register with BMI or ASCAP is the first thing. One or two googles and some good luck and you’ll be on your way.

In terms of “the industry,” such as it is, how do you navigate the streaming world? It’s clearly designed to financially benefit platforms like Spotify as opposed to the artists who make the music, but if we want to be heard, we have to play by their rules. How do you decide what to share with streaming platforms and when to share it, as opposed to making it exclusively available on sites like Bandcamp?

It’s simply not anyone’s responsibility, in my opinion, to blast my music to the world. I don’t know where this notion comes from. I am not entitled to an audience. But maybe if I keep working at making songs people want to hear, they’ll tell their friends about me. Then they’ll come see me play. I love Bandcamp because it feels like another circle of friends who support each other and listen to each other’s music, and I love those circles.

What do you have on the horizon? Any big projects?

We have an album coming, every song is a collab. Brady Jo is doing the production and BK Birge is doing the mastering.

Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, Kelly! I really appreciate it!

Thanks so much for having me!

Right When It’s Right: An Interview with Brian Lambert

I’m not sure how long I had been following singer-songwriter Brian Lambert on Twitter when I really started to take notice of him and his work, but over the past week or so, something about his posts really started catching my eye. Maybe it was a reference to Brian Eno’s oblique strategies. Or his recent cover of Wham’s “Last Christmas.” Or the fact that he once played the part of Buddy Holly onstage. Or his yearlong quest to write and record a song a week for a full year. Then again, maybe it was just the overall theme of kindness and generosity that pervades his tweets that made me want to learn more about him. Whatever the case, I’m glad I did, because his big-hearted indie rock reflects an impeccably crafted blend of eclectic interests. 

What inspired you to embark on your fifty-two week song challenge, and how is it going?  

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the challenge and things music and social media.  The fifty-two week Song Challenge was born out of a desire to showcase what is hard to show – talent, specifically the ability to write a lot of songs.   I write anywhere from thirty to fifty songs a year, but that was a hard thing to demonstrate.   The idea of showcasing that process one week at a time and taking people along for the ride seemed the way to do it.  Also I had never felt like I had really ever made a great recording.  Pre-pandemic I was performing three to five times a week and heard “you’re much better live than in your recordings” so much that I wanted to finally get the magic down on tape, so to speak.  Throw in the obsession for mixing and mastering that came as a result of lockdown and a Fifty-Two Week Song Challenge is born.

Has anything about writing and recording a song a week surprised you? Have you learned anything interesting about yourself – or about songwriting – from the experience?  

I think I was surprised by how much I still have to learn and will probably never stop learning.  Probably the biggest songwriting and performance lesson has been about the connection between melody and really hitting the right notes, both from a pitch sense but more about how certain melodic experiences create an impact for the listener.  One of the questions I find myself asking now that I didn’t before, but is the foundation for all I do now, is what do I want the song to do?  What I mean is, how do I want it to make people feel?  Lyrics have always been my focus, but people don’t pay attention, myself included, until the music makes them feel something.  Once you have someone’s attention, they can really hear what you’re trying to say.  

You definitely got my attention! Early in the challenge, you mentioned that your sense of patience was evolving as the challenge progressed. Can you say more about that? Why is patience so important for songwriters and creative people in general? 

Music is right when it’s right.  You don’t have to think about why your favorite songs are your favorite songs.  When it comes out of the speakers, it hits you.  I think as a songwriter you hear a song in your head but getting it to come to life requires sitting with something and listening until it tells you it’s ready.  Getting that right alchemy of beat, rhythm and melody can take time and so can capturing a performance that conveys the meaning you want.  Guitar parts matter, vocal parts matter, and you can’t edit them into existence.   Early on it would sometimes take three hours to really nail the feel and that can be frustrating.  Being patient with the song and taking an attitude that you’re exploring until you find what you’re looking for was a challenge.  Now I’m much more intentional about really asking the question “What am I going for?” before I start. Listening to takes and asking what is missing or what needs to be left out has drastically reduced that time because you can definitely suck the life out of song by overdoing it.

I’ve been guilty of that myself sometimes! One thing that strikes me about your songs, though, is that you’re not only releasing a lot of music, but you’re releasing a lot of good music. These aren’t just toss-offs for the sake of meeting a quota, and you’re clearly thinking about producing a final product as opposed to a demo. What is your process like? What guides your approach to music production?

I’m definitely trying to improve every piece of work that I put out there.  The goal of this is to make a living off my recorded work going forward, so it all has to be good.  All killer, no filler.

My desire is to make music as good as the best music being made and the music being made today is exceptional.

The process really has evolved over the course of the project.  Recently I’ve been doing single mic acoustic recordings, which involves doing takes until I have the feel I want.  For my other work I usually start with some rough guitar and vocal to find a beat, then come back to create a bass line you start with the foundation of the song.  Then it’s a matter of putting down guitar until it’s the right feel, then vocals and solos.  I’ll ask myself, does it need synths and depending on where I am with things add those.  Then mix and master.  It’s not that exciting but when you’re producing a song a week where you’re performing the parts, you really just have to get down to it.

And come up with an attractive way of packaging it! I love the line drawings you use as cover art. Are those your drawings? 

Actually they are my fourteen-year-old daughter.  She really has a talent.  It’s ironic, I’m not particularly good at drawing but my dad is an amazing artist and was the head of an art department at a small college in south Texas.  My wife and both my children are really talented when it comes to the visual arts.

“Shade of Blue” cover art

Your song “Small Mercies” is extremely powerful, and the chorus, “Sometimes small mercies will make all things right,” reflects the sense I get from many of your Twitter posts that the world can use a little more kindness and generosity, especially when it comes to social media. Why do you think it’s so important to share that message right now? 

Once feelings start to get hurt like they have been over the last few years, you notice that the small courtesies or giving the people the benefit of the doubt start to erode.  When that happens meaningful communication can’t happen.  I think there was a missed opportunity with social media to practice kind communication.  Part of that was not connecting that there was a real person typing the words.  We thought words don’t matter but as we have seen though they do and can cause real damage.  The real opportunity that exists with social media is the opportunity to be thoughtful.  There is an opportunity to read a comment and question your own opinions/thoughts/motivations/feelings before sharing them out into the world and that opportunity is still here.   Social media has shown us there is pain in the world that needs healing but it won’t be healed in one big action.  It will heal with small consistent acts of kindness.

A lot of your earlier music has a bit of a country lilt, but your recent work has taken on more of an indie rock feel. What’s behind this shift? 

Honestly, the shift is back to what I was doing before I made “Country Music Jesus.”  Being from Texas I just have that accent and that’s how I sing.  My favorite band is Spoon, and indie rock is the music I love. That being said, I listen broadly to  music. I love Latin American pop and rock from the ‘00s, experimental artists like Brian Eno and Can, as well classic country and what is being called Americana these days. The move to country music was a career move. I live in Texas, so that’s what shows are available to play and get paid for. I have the right voice and can write classic country and story songs so it seemed like a good fit.  It was not. Country Music is a club and I wasn’t ever going to be a member, mostly because my heart wasn’t in it. The music I am making now is the most honest and true to my own musical tastes.

Speaking of “Country Music Jesus,” you sing in that song that you “ain’t got nothing against beers or trucks or America or being with your baby on a Friday night,” but you worry that contemporary country music tends to reduce its fans to stereotypes. I’m guessing this isn’t just true of country music but of all genres. It’s easier to sell music—or any commodity—to a narrowly defined market than to an audience with diverse and complex interests. Is there a way out of this trap, for lack of a better word? 

I believe this is a result of an algorithm driven world.  If things don’t fit neatly into a box then the algorithm doesn’t know what to do with it.  I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve submitted for playlists and gotten the feedback, “Great song, love the feel, it’s really good but doesn’t fit in with the other music on the playlist.” Well that’s because I’m trying to make something that you haven’t heard yet. If you want to listen to music that’s already been made, it’s already there. I don’t copy it. To overcome this trend, artists must continue to be brave and make different music. For the listener, I’m not sure how you build an awareness that they need to hear a diversity of music. I believe it’s the same as for any process, a diversity of backgrounds, viewpoints, and stories creates better outcomes. Music is the same.

Your most recent release is a cover of Wham’s “Last Christmas.” What attracted you to that particular holiday song?

That’s easy. It’s my wife’s all time favorite Christmas song.  Of course I don’t not have the gorgeous voice of George Michael, but it’s a well written song that lends itself to a different interpretation. Guys who like crunchy guitars get their heart broken too.

And just because I love Buddy Holly, when did you play the role of Buddy, and what was that like?

That was a lot of fun and a lot of work.  They basically came to me and said we need a tall skinny awkward guy from Texas who can sing and play guitar.  Can you do that?  It was funny afterward because people would compliment on the work it took to get Buddy Holly’s awkward dance moves down and I just said thank you, knowing that I was just doing me.  Musically it was an awesome experience because I had to learn 20 Buddy Holly songs and was able to do a deep study into what made his work tick.  It really improved my own songwriting and approach to doing music.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, Brian! I really appreciate it!

It’s been my pleasure! I’m looking forward to chatting again soon!

THE ANTI-POP REVOLUTION IS HERE! An Interview with Chris Triggs of the La La Lettes

I first heard the La-La-Lettes a number of months ago when my buddies in Thee Rakevines gave them a shout-out on Twitter. The band hales from Colwyn Bay, Wales, UK, and somehow manages to fuse two seemingly irreconcilable modes of expression by being both intensely experimental and fun at the same time.

Give their 2020 albums Easy Peasy and April a listen, and you’ll hear clear echoes of the Byrds, Syd Barrett, and the Rolling Stones, while 2021’s ONKY and i Godge, Goj, Gols and Gods explore musical territory best exemplified by acts like the Velvet Underground, the Residents, Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band, and Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band.

Full disclosure: As anyone who reads this blog with any regularity knows, I recently had a chance to work with the La-La-Lettes on their double-A-side single, “Song 71 (You Didn’t Love Me)”/“J’ecoute La Radio,” which calls to mind a cross between the Beach Boys and Bob Dylan. I used the opportunity to chat with Chris Triggs, the brains behind the band, about songwriting, music production, and his creative process.

I know of four La-La-Lettes albums and a handful of singles all released over the last two years. You seem to have come out of nowhere! Were you doing anything else musically before the La-La-Lettes?

 Yes, but years ago. I’d been either writing and recording for about 20+ years, climbing the ladder of Hardware recording items, ‘Tape recorder’/’Four Track’ and then ‘Cool Edit Pro’. Then about at the end of 2011, the Time/Sony computer I worked on blew up, and I thought it was time for a rest, which carried on until late 2019. I thought I’d miss it, but my son who was born in 2005 was at an interesting age by 2011 and his life took over mine and I didn’t miss the guitar, writing or anything. Strange really, thinking about it now, but I didn’t write anything for years at one point.

In late 2018, I fell into a real dark hole, and 2019 was my year of hell. Luckily, in December ’19, I was talking to my sister, and she suggested taking up music again, it was like a ‘lightbulb moment’, throw all my pain into music ‘brilliant’. Although my issues were still raging, picking up the guitar helped. I think that’s why ‘Easy Peasy’ sounds so edgy, I was getting a ‘lot out’. After finishing that first album, I didn’t want to let it just lie, so I decided to put it on Spotify etc, which led me to Twitter.

It’s amazing how therapeutic music can be! I’m picking up a strong 60s vibe in a lot of your music. Who are some of your favorite bands from that era, and why does that music resonate so strongly with you?

I just followed the trend when I was a kid, listening to stuff like The Police, Blondie and all that. Then one day I was watching TV and this advertisement came on for a new Beach Boys compilation, and that’s when I heard (a snippet) of ‘Good Vibrations’ for the first time. I guess that was the Siren calling. That was it, Beach Boys forever almost. I realized quite early on that I wasn’t just listening to the songs, but making out the sounds of the guitars, the bass, the amazing drums (probably by Hal Blaine) and of course those vocals. It just spoke volumes to me. As time went on, I listened more intently to my dad’s Beatles LPs, being knocked out by the sounds created on ‘Strawberry Fields’, ‘I Am the Walrus’ etc. They were just gorgeous sounds for my delicate ears. Then I sought of discovered other bands, that friends/colleagues suggested, The Byrds were next, I love David Crosby’s songs (still do), and all that stretched into other avenues, Jefferson Airplane, The Mamas and the Papas, that whole Californian late 60s thing was it for me. Then also late 60’s Motown stuff, Tammi Terrell (greatest voice ever). It was a 60’s thing, tape hiss everything, just beautiful.

Does the name La-La-Lettes have special significance?

No! Hahahaha! At the time I was about to put Easy Peasy online and realized I required a band name, I was reading an article about The Faces who have an album called Oh La La. So I used ‘La-La’ and thought ‘Let’s call it that’ and I wrote ‘The La-La-Lettes’ adding an extra ‘T’ and ‘E’ to be silly. Means nothing lol.

But also in line with some of those great 60s bands like the Marvelettes! Along similar lines, your titles are fascinating. Where did ONKY and i Godge, Goj, Gols and Gods come from?

Years ago, there was a game show called ‘Strike it Lucky’ and one Christmas they did a kids edition, which I remember being hilarious. One question asked to one little girl was, ‘Who was friends with George and Zippy in the (kids) TV show Rainbow’, people from the UK will know the answer is ‘Bungle’, BUT this little 4/5 year old said “ONKY”, I just howled with laughter and the name stuck.

‘Godge’ is a little more tricky. In the late 90’s I did an album called ‘An afternoon with the Gods’, which I did on 4-track. Anyway, when I was doing ‘Godge’ I noticed a similarity in the songs of both albums. I didn’t want to call it ‘An Afternoon with the Gods 2’, I didn’t want a connection, so I made up the word ‘Godge’ and elaborated. I’m not sure, but I think ‘Godge’ actually has a definition,  I think it means something along the lines of ‘punching wind’. In the lyrics of ‘Oh, how we used to laugh’, there’s a part which says ‘pushing against the tide’, which was weird if the meaning of ‘Godge’ is correct.

As a musician—and, more broadly, as an artist—you make a lot of decisions that I’d describe as “anti-pop.” A lot of the sounds on i Godge, Goj, Gols and Gods are jarring, and you’re not afraid to release music that strays off the grid in terms of key and tempo. Those decisions, I have to say, really make your music come to life. What’s the rationale behind them?

“Anti-Pop!!!” What a cool description. I must admit I was on a bit of a roll during the making of ‘Godge’, most of the riffs, chord sequences and ideas came before I’d written a word. It’s a huge mix of influences on that album. Dylan, Beatles, Sex Pistols, Beach Boys of course) and others. So I was really spoilt for choice over stuff I had available, and just had to cram it all together. Lyrically, every song on ‘Godge’ is about someone I know, and to be honest, I’m very proud of it.

I guess I look at a high percentage of bands/artists I’ve discovered on Twitter as “Anti-Pop”. I like to think of us all as the ‘”new wave”, The Kintners, Lunar Plexus, Temporary Longterm Positions, Fendahlene, Thee Rakevines, Blank Cassettes, The Last Ghost, Oplaadtijd, McDead, Touanda, Moistule, Miss Kitty and Rubber Clown Car and the work you’re producing are just some excellent examples. They’ve all done incredible stuff, all different types of music too, brilliant albums, everything. It feels good to be involved. THE ANTI-POP REVOLUTION IS HERE…

Let’s hope so! I feel like the public appetite for interesting music—music that breaks rules and challenges the listener’s expectations—just doesn’t exist. To put it crudely, there isn’t really a market for it. No one’s banging down the door for the kind of music that you and I and others like us make. Which raises a question I think about from time to time regarding my own music: Why make it? And, of course, what keeps you going?

I love the thought of a blank canvas, to paint a picture, to make it interesting and ‘happy’, I keep going because of this. I’ve always been the same since I was a child, inventing, creating, I can’t stop it, it’s a passion. You’re right of course, there’s no market for us lot, lol. But I believe something will happen, doors always open on a journey.

The latest single, “J’ecoute La Radio,” is sung in French. What was behind that decision?

Lol, I work in the Oil and Gas industry cataloging maps, and one day I was working on some French data and I needed to translate a couple of words on ‘Google translate’, which I’ve done hundreds of times before, but this one day, I was just in a funny mood, and began writing words/lyrics onto google translate, which is just a silly idea really. I put the lines into order on a file and printed the sheet. I just fancied doing something different to see if I could do it. Musically it took 3 attempts to get the melody right, it was originally an earworm (a nasty one too).

Needless to say, I’m impressed with your output. Four albums in two years! What’s your recording process like?

Very instant. I have no patience with recording. It’s a ‘now or never’ attitude. Even when I’m recording, I look for a bit of improvisation, mad really, as sometimes when I come to doing the bass or 2nd guitar I forget what I’ve done!

I’m always looking for that one ‘word’, ‘rhyme’, ‘riff’ or a ‘weird chord’ even to help make a song interesting enough for me to like it. As said earlier with ‘Godge’ I had loads of things ready before writing a word

“J’ecoute” was perhaps took an hour, acoustic guitar/vocal, bass, drums, vocal/vocal/vocal/vocal/vocal, electric guitar, Marc Schuster yaaaay. Easy Peasy, love it.

Me too! And speaking of your creative output, what do you have in the works?

I do have a 5th album “Obsession” ready to go. But, I just love working on instinct at the moment. I recently did an E.P. in two days (Days of Winter), and I keep looking for the next song, the next single. I have an idea for something along the lines of a ‘Bo Diddley’ tune for a Protest song, but we’ll see.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, Chris!